ABS

"ncasolowork2" (ncasolowork2) 11/12/2013 at 08:06 • Filed to: None

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I've been accused by trolling by a number of people on a front page article. I find ABS to be obtrusive and inefficient. Perhaps I've not experienced a "modern" ABS system, but in icy conditions I've often found the ABS to be very bad at what it is supposed to do because it kicks in too early. There's more stopping power in the brakes that won't lock the wheels than the ABS system is allowing for and a properly modulated brake pedal will outperform the ABS system.

So I ask you Opponauts. Am I insane or is this plausible?

Mattbob > ncasolowork2 11/12/2013 at 08:16

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I work for a supplier of modern abs and traction control systems, and I design and support testers for braking systems, so I am somewhat familiar with the topic. Trust me, modern ABS and traction control is better that what you can possibly do. The sensors and modulation are so much faster than what you can do it's incredible. ABS does take the fun out of it, I agree, but from a safety aspect, it is no contest. ABS is better, It will keep you tracking straight, will stop faster than you can, and will allow you to focus on steering inputs.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > ncasolowork2 11/12/2013 at 08:16

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I have an audi 200 20v that has an ABS override specifically for snowy/icy conditions. It even says in the manual that in extreme conditions (basically if you rally it) the ABS system is inferior to good use of the brake pedal. I can also attest to the fact that ABS systems on cars with drum brakes seem woefully difficult to keep balanced as the miles add up. I've owned two cars now with ABS that had drums in the rear and both pulled in a certain direction under braking.

However, pretty much anything made in the late 90s and beyond with disc brakes and traction control is typically smart enough to let the wheels attempt to spin a bit in the cold to help keep traction. At least, that's been my experience with GM products and I'm assuming the other automakers are at least as advanced as GM's bread and butter mid sized cars like the W-bodies.

I_AmDeath > Mattbob 11/12/2013 at 08:23

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Could what he is saying be possible with an early abs system? Also your job sounds pretyy neat.

ncasolowork2 > Mattbob 11/12/2013 at 08:24

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I'll buy this. I just haven't ever experienced modern ABS. The best ABS system I've really encountered is a 94 Jeep. My wife has an 06 Pontiac Vibe, but the Jeep had much better ABS. The ABS on the Vibe kicks in way too early.

Mattbob > I_AmDeath 11/12/2013 at 08:26

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Yeah, early systems were kind of shit. They helped people who couldn't do it themselves, but the new systems are way better.

I_AmDeath > Mattbob 11/12/2013 at 08:29

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So op there's your answer your using a commodore 64 and saying every computer is slow.

McMike > ncasolowork2 11/12/2013 at 08:35

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What do I think? I agree with you. I don't need it. I don't want it. I don't want traction control, I don't want ESC, I don't want ABS. NO NO NO NO NO!

However, if these nanny engineering and safety features will help 99% of the people on the road, I'm OK with that.

MooseKnuckles > ncasolowork2 11/12/2013 at 08:41

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For the typical driver ABS is a godsend, but threshold braking will get you stopped more effectively, unless you lock up, of course.
ABS lets you pound on the brakes without worry so it is great for someone in a panic.

highmodulus > ncasolowork2 11/12/2013 at 08:47

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You're insane (on this). Here's a funny cat picture (cause kitteh)

dinobot666 > ncasolowork2 11/12/2013 at 09:01

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I don't like ABS either, but what what ABS allows you to do is to brake AND steer at the same time.

ncasolowork2 > dinobot666 11/12/2013 at 09:04

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People keep saying that. It is almost like I steer the wheel with my feet while the car brakes for me. I understand that if you lock your wheels you lose steering control. Before I even had a license my Dad took me to a big empty parking lot and instructed me to slam on the brakes in a vehicle without ABS so I would learn how the car would react. ABS allows you to maintain SOME steering control as the wheels lock and unlock, but braking without locking at all maintains even better control.

dinobot666 > ncasolowork2 11/12/2013 at 09:10

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I think it's a feel issue more than anything. I've seen all sorts of videos that show the difference between ABS and non ABS braking systems and the ABS always wins in terms of control, but it's the feels man.

ABS makes it "feel" like there's something wrong, as if something isn't working properly, the way everything vibrates and shutters under your foot. The first few times this happened to me, I instinctively lifted my foot off the pedal thinking something had gone amiss with the braking system, when it was the ABS doing what it was supposed to.

Why on earth somebody thought it was prudent to have everything make dings and shake and rattle as a means of avoidance for braking is beyond me.

rabidpenguin > ncasolowork2 11/12/2013 at 09:43

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I completely agree with you. Every car I have driven with abs has been to intrusive and cuts in waaaaaaaaay to early whether in the wet or dry.

However for the 90% of the population that doesn't know how to properly handle a car it is life saving magic. When these drivers want to stop they jam the pedal to the floor and ignore how to properly control the car.

Textured Soy Protein > ncasolowork2 11/12/2013 at 09:45

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ABS has saved my ass on multiple occasions in snow and ice. I drove a Miata through 4 Wisconsin winters thanks in large part to snow tires and ABS. The ABS on that car (a '99) wasn't particularly sophisticated but it still did a good job. The ABS in the next car I had after that ('06 Mazdaspeed 6) was noticeably smarter in that it did a better job deciding when to kick in and it could pulse at a much higher frequency in shorter bursts.

On a more bench racing level, measured 70-0 mph stopping distances with ABS are almost always a lot shorter than without.

Shankems > ncasolowork2 11/12/2013 at 09:54

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Modern ABS combined with stability control does a better job of controlling and stopping a car than 100% of drivers in every situation.

A perfectly modulated brake pedal is simply never going to happen outside of a professional race driver on his home course.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > ncasolowork2 11/12/2013 at 09:58

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First, I'd like to say good on your dad, it's a great learning experience to make sure you don't panic when you start sliding for the first time.

Second, I'd like to say you should do the same thing with ABS and just try to...trust it. When I first got ABS I had the same problem, I wanted to pump the brakes and do it myself but once I let it do it's thing, I've had nothing but positive results. It's hard to give that control over to the computer/car. Try that parking lot out again and maybe see how your stopping distance/control varies from one to the other.

The Traction control and ABS systems in my current car have done nothing but good things for helping me stop (and it's really helped a couple times).

Background- I jumped from an 88 S10 Blazer up to a 2004 Blazer so no ABS to ABS. Then I jumped to an 07 Mercury Milan, TCS and ABS.

ncasolowork2 > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 11/12/2013 at 10:00

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The only way to really test it would be to find a way to disable ABS on your car to see how it compares. Otherwise too many variables in play.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > ncasolowork2 11/12/2013 at 10:04

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I wonder if you can pull an amp that controls it.

bhardoin > ncasolowork2 11/12/2013 at 12:30

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My experience with and without ABS:

My dad's 2000 Durango had "ABS" - really it was just designed to kill us. If you stomped the brake pedal hard enough to trigger it, the car would suddenly stop braking for about a tenth of a second then reengage, lock the brakes, and then finally regain traction and slow down. This fault - designed in or faulty, the mechanics could never figure it out - almost got me in a couple accidents while driving it.

Just this weekend I locked up a wheel in my Z (no ABS) for the first time, and caught it pretty quick, but there's just no way I as a driver could possibly predict every bump in a road that might unsettle my wheels as I'm ripping down a country road.

So end result? ABS doesn't bug me, bad ABS bugs me. A computer can scan data with a much better and more accurate reaction time than I ever will be able to, but early ABS systems seemed kinda shitty to me.

Mattbob > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 11/13/2013 at 07:22

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you could pull the fuse, or probably even disconnect the harness to the abs unit. You would get all sorts of warnings though.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > Mattbob 11/13/2013 at 11:25

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Probably a check engine and an ABS light, but it would work for the purposes of a one time test in a parking lot.

Jason Reece > ncasolowork2 11/27/2013 at 02:38

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In the early days of ABS, I might have agreed with you to some degree. But the advent of Electronic Brakeforce Distribution, Emergency Brake Assist, and Electronic Stability and Traction Control Systems eliminate the issue you mention. A car with these technologies will optimize braking performance and minimize braking distances better than any human could!